Title:	Interview with Robert L. McLeod, Jr.
Author:	McLeod, Robert L., Jr., 1901-
Source:	Centre College Special Collections. Oral History Interviews
Note:	The interview with Robert L. McLeod, Jr., President of Centre College from 1938 to 1942, was conducted by John LeDoux, and took place in Danville on April 23, 1983. President McLeod was attending the inauguration of Richard L. Morrill as President of Centre College. The interview was transcribed in 1985.
Rights:	http://www.centre.edu/web/library/rights.html

INTERVIEWER: Dr. McLeod, briefly I would like to start out a little bit with your personal background. Could you tell us briefly a little bit about your family background and your ancestry?

My father and mother have both passed away, of course. I was one of eleven children, and I have one sister left. My home town was Maxton, North Carolina. I received my education at Davidson College and then Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and then Edinburgh University.

INTERVIEWER: What were the dates for this education?

I was at Davidson from 1918 to 1922, and then I was in Edinburgh University from 1923 to 1924. Then I came back to this country and then later on went to Princeton Seminary and also to Union Seminary in New York.

INTERVIEWER: What was the date of your marriage?

I was married in 1926 to Ruth John. Her father was a doctor in Laurinburg, North Carolina. She was a graduate of Greensboro College in North Carolina. Following our marriage we were in Scotland at Edinburgh University. Following that we came back to this country, and I was pastor of the First Presbyterian Church in Granada, Mississippi. From there we went to Winterhaven, Florida, where we were for five years, and from there to the headquarters of the Presbyterian Church in New York City, where I was secretary to the Board of National Missions for a period of two years. That's where I came in contact with Dr. Harmon, who was pastor over at Lexington; and Dr. Frank Caldwell, who was president of the Louisville Theological Seminary. Dr. Caldwell and I worked together in Edinburgh University. So those two men, I think, are the ones who sponsored my candidacy here for the president of Centre College.

At that time Centre was operated by both General Assemblies of the Northern Presbyterian and the Southern Presbyterian Church. Louisville Seminary originally was the theological department of Centre College. So when Louisville Seminary came into existence, it was required that the president of Louisville Seminary be a member of the Southern Presbyterian Church and that the president here at Centre be a member of the Northern Presbyterian Church. Although reared a Southern Presbyterian and having attended Louisville Seminary, I was with the headquarters of the Northern Presbyterian Church, so I knew most of the ministers here in the state of Kentucky. So I think it was a case there more of my position rather than my ability that made them interested in having me here as their president.

I was here for four years and then went into the Navy because of the dearth of chaplains in the Navy. You see, in our Army a minister did not have to be a graduate of a qualified college and also a qualified seminary; but in the Navy they did have to be; therefore, I met the qualifications for that. So many of our boys were leaving the College here to go in the service that I realized; well, if these men are going into the service, they should have the advantages of a chaplain wherever they are. When I went into the Navy, we had only about three hundred-odd chaplains in the Navy; and when the war was over, we had over three thousand. I was not in the Chaplains' Division too long before they put me in the educational division of the Navy. I directed the Navy B-12 pre-theological and theological program nationally for two years in the headquarters in Washington as aid to Admiral Wortman. Then I went out to the Pacific on the Aircraft Carrier Antetha and was out there the last year of the war.

While out there I came to realize that the men were having so many family problems and marital problems. I realized that the only way to get to those problems would be in the regular pastorate where I could go into their homes.

When we came back here, Dr. McMullen, of course, had come in as co-president somewhat. When I left the College to go into the Navy, a three-way arrangement was made. At the end of the war I would be under no obligation to come back to the College. Dr. McMullen would be under no obligation to stay here. The trustees would be under no obligation to have either one of us back here at that time because we didn't know how long the war would last, don't you see, and so forth. When I got out of the Navy and came back, Dr. McMullen was here. He was a graduate of Centre, and he had also been president of a college in China. He couldn't go back there. So I felt, really, that Dr. McMullen was the man for the place since I had this feeling that I ought to go back into the ministry. So I resigned at that time. Then right after I resigned Dr. McMullen was drafted, practically, to go to New York to head up the colleges in China, that is, the American colleges of China. Had I known that, I might not have resigned, you see, but I thought he could be here.

I carried on with mine and then went back into the pastorate. I was in the pastorate in St. Joseph, Missouri, for four years. I had a heart attack that laid me up for several months. So I could not go back to that climate out there and went down to Florida, to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and was there for five years. Then I went back to Missouri as professor of religion and dean of the chapel at Lindenwood College just out of St. Louis. I was there for a short time and then was drafted by my college fraternity (social fraternity) nationally, which is the Pi Kappa Alpha Fraternity. I went in to help them out for eighteen months. I told them I'd come for only eighteen months to help bring about some reforms in the various chapters over the nation. The main thing was to get the white clause out of the initiation ceremonies because we were closed out from several universities because of the white clause. So we had to get that removed; that was one thing they had been having trouble with. So we were able to get the reforms. Anyway, to make a long story short, I resigned from that because I felt that a lay person should be the one to turn the screws there after the reforms had been brought about.

Then I went to help a church in Memphis, Tennessee, which was right next to national headquarters. The minister there was having problems. His wife had cancer and she couldn't live very long, and he needed some help. So I went over and helped him out for about five years as the associate minister of that church.

Then one of my former graduates here when I was president of the College, Kenneth Phifer, who is in the St. Charles Presbyterian Church in New Orleans, had a heart attack. As soon as he was able, when his doctors would let him, he called me. He knew that I was getting ready to retire, and he called me and asked me if I could delay my retirement long enough to come down and help him out until he could get back on his feet in New Orleans, which I did, and was down there with him for two years. And then I retired, officially retired, as minister of the church.

INTERVIEWER: That would have been what year?

That was 1967. Then the church which I had served in Winterhaven, Florida, heard of my retirement and they invited me to come back on the staff of the church as part-time minister of visitation and counseling. So I went back then. I've been working with them pretty much up until the last two years except for leave of absences to go out and serve other churches as somewhat of a trouble-shooter where they were without a minister and they had problems in the churches, and so forth. So I have finally been retired now for these two years.

As I told you before, my decision to come to Centre was because of the situation there that existed, don't you see. Of course I had known of Centre for many, many years.

INTERVIEWER: I wanted to ask you, before I get into a few more specific questions here, just for the record, what was the date of your birth?

My birth was January 28, 1901.

INTERVIEWER: What were the names of your parents?

My father was Robert L. McLeod, Sr., and of course I'm Robert L. McLeod, Jr. He was named for Robert E. Lee because his father, in the Civil War, was on Robert E. Lee's staff. So my father was named for Robert E. Lee, and of course I took my father's name.

INTERVIEWER: And your mother's name?

My mother's name was Margaret Elizabeth Mclver.

INTERVIEWER: I wanted to ask you if you could describe Centre the way you remember it when you first arrived.

Well, actually, I just rejoice when I look at Centre now. I was telling Tom Spragens last night that he has really done such a marvelous job here. Centre was pretty much down in the dumps at that time. They were on probation with the Southern University Conference because we were not paying our faculty members enough nor spending enough in the library. Fortunately, I had very good friends in the Southern University Conference, Dr. McKane of Agnes Scott College, Dr. Deal of Southwestern College in Memphis, Dr. Jarmon of Mary Baldwin College, and Dr. Lingall of Davidson College. So when I came here, they asked the Southern University Conference to delay, or extend, the probation for another year because it was so unfair to me, just starting in, to have the College immediately put on probation. And, of course, very shortly--I came here and started to work here in September of 1938, and then in June--I mean in early spring--the following year Mr. Guy Wiseman passed away. He left the College approximately $750,000.00, unrestricted, which would be the equivalent of one and a half million today, or more. But we were able to put that immediately on faculty salaries and library--the income on that. And, frankly, I'm just ashamed almost to say this, that when I came here, Dr. Hewlett was receiving only twenty-two hundred dollars a year as the dean of the College. And that was the highest salary paid to any person. I was receiving, as president, six thousand dollars a year. That's all they could afford. We were able to raise the faculty salaries, but I wouldn't let them raise my salary until we could get back on a more even keel in that situation. I have the highest regard and respect for Dr. Hewlett and also for these loyal trustees who did everything they could. We got into a difficult situation here financially. I won't go into that. But the town of Danville just simply within about two weeks time responded, and we got about a hundred thousand dollars. I often think of this atmosphere and climate in which this College is located that, honestly, the people of Boyle County have taken it as almost their own child.

INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else aside from the good town and gown relations that struck you about the town of Danville when you first came here?

Well, I was very impressed with that, the town and gown, because--And I think it was evidenced by the way the people responded when we were in need of money. It was a very delightful relationship. I wish I could have enjoyed it more, but I had to be out shaking the bushes to raise the funds and so forth.

We were the first ones to live in the Craik House over there, and when I came the College offered us our choice; we could go into the old president's home which Dr. Turck had used, which was right adjacent to Old Centre. They had just bought this house over there, and I felt two things. There were professors living in the house (Dr. Turck's as a president's home) and I didn't want to move them out. Dr. Mount was one, and I didn't want to see him moved out. There's one thing. The second thing was that I felt that the College needed something to get out of that slump they were in, the feeling of inferiority, and I felt that by going into that house over there it would help some. Also from Mr. Wiseman, when we got that money, we felt that we would put another front on the back of Old Centre building and put in those two dormitories, the Wiseman Dormitories and the commons over there, McReynolds Hall. I felt those two things were necessary because, actually, I was told when I first came here that there was no money to try to compete in getting students from Louisville Male High and Manual School, because we couldn't compete with them. I said, "Well, I don't see why we can't compete. We've got a college rich in history, heritage, and esteem here." Really, it was a case there of, I think, unconsciously and blaming no one, I think the faculty and some of our trustees even had gotten a feeling of inferiority about Centre, and I felt that that was so vital to offset that particular situation.

INTERVIEWER: What do you attribute that to? Can you speculate on why they felt that way?

Oh, yes. I think it was the economy at that particular time.

INTERVIEWER: The Depression had hit Centre particularly hard?

That's right. It had hit Centre very hard. They had put up no new buildings here. That feeling of apology for presenting Centre to students as a possible college and so forth, I feel that that was the biggest thing. I don't mean to say there that I did that, but that's what I felt was one of the great needs of Centre. And I think going into the new president's home -- of course the new president's home was not in too good a condition at that time. Here was Sutcliffe, here, who took a personal interest in it and did a good many things over there that nobody knew about--getting the College to go in. And of course, fortunately, my father was blessed (he was in the lumber business) so that he was interested in our coming here and he also helped out, which he would not want to be advertised about at all.

But the women's campus, now that's an interesting situation. When I came here this College was unique in that it was one of the few colleges that was coordinate education. But it was a very expensive thing because you had to have your campus over there where the high school is now and the campus over here. You had to have two deans, you had to have libraries and all that sort of thing. I saw that right away, but there was a lot of sentiment about both of these colleges. The members of the men's college did not want to see the two colleges merged. And I think a great many of graduates of the college for women over there and trustees and people connected with that didn't want it at all. But I think that Tom Spragens--Dr. Groves and Tom Spragens--did a very statesmanlike job there in bringing the two together and merging them together to make coeducation. And I think it's been very advantageous to the College; I think that's been shown by the result.

INTERVIEWER: Was there a feeling with the women's campus--you said Centre was so hard hit by the Depression--was there a feeling when you took office that the women's college having to also support in effect two campuses, was that what you were talking about?

They felt almost that they were an appendage to Centre College. Yes, to answer your question, I think they felt that they were an; appendage. For instance, we had to hold chapel over here in the Old Main building and then I'd have to go over there and hold chapel in the auditorium over there. There was no way of them getting together very much. They did in class, but I'm afraid there was a little bit of a feeling there that, even with our faculty members, unconsciously, that these were outsiders coming into the class, especially when the classes were held on this campus. Some of them were not large enough to be broken up into two separate classes, you see.

INTERVIEWER: One thing that came to mind--you were, I believe, 36 when you took office. Is that correct?

I was thirty-seven.

INTERVIEWER: Thirty-seven. And I think you were the youngest?

I believe I was, yes.

INTERVIEWER: I want to ask a kind of two-part question. Was there any misgivings at all on the campus or in the community about having such a young man hold this important office? And how did you feel coming, you know, knowing you were the youngest ever to hold this office?

Well, of course I felt very inadequate because I had never been a college president and had never thought of being that. I know of no place at that time in the United States where you could go and take a course that would teach you to be a college president. You had to just go right in. At the time I came here I did some research, and the average tenure of college presidents in the late '3Os was four years--the average tenure. I don't remember right now the percentage, but a large percentage of them came from the faculty of the college in which they were and they became unhappy and went back into the classroom, which I can understand fully. That's the reason for the brevity of the amount of time they spent in the president's office. Not that they were unhappy, but they were hungry for the classroom and their contact. I could see that very fully. But the people were very gracious and very nice to us. I never had any feeling, nor did my wife, either (she was just 33 when we came here). We never had any feeling at all, not even any insinuation, that they could not accept us because of our age. Dr. Turck and I were very good friends. I was with the headquarters--with the chairman of the Board of National Missions, and he was chairman of the Board of Personal Education in Philadelphia--so before I came here we had talked a great deal. When he found out they were interested in me, we visited back and forth a great deal, and he briefed me on the situation here at Centre and spoke very highly of it, which was very helpful to me. Then Dr. Groves, who succeeded me--I found out through the Board of Foreign Missions in New York that they were closing the schools over there in Tehran. The government was taking over. So I heard about Dr. Groves and went to New York when I found out he was returning to this country with his family. I went to New York and went in to the Board of National Missions and found two other colleges that were interested in him, either as dean or as president. So I found out when his ship was coming in. They were docking over on the New Jersey side. I got up at 3 o'clock in the morning and went over to meet the ship. When his wife and children came off the ship, I said, "Dr. Groves, you go ahead and take care of your luggage, and I'm going to visit here with your wife and children." I told her what a wonderful college Centre was and community for her children to be reared here and so forth. Then when he went into New York city to the headquarters, these other two representatives were waiting to see him there. We almost had him tied up by that time.

INTERVIEWER: I wanted to ask you what changes or, rather, accomplishments or developments did you take the most pride in during your four years at Centre?

Well, I think that the thing I took greatest pride in during those four years was getting financial aid to help take care of the faculty and the library we had here at the College. We were also very fortunate also with Mrs. Evans and the large gift that she gave, her property out here and so forth. That was very providential because we brought in a landscape (nationally known) architect and he spent--oh, I think maybe he spent three or four weeks here making a study of the campus, of Old Centre, so that we could have a long-view program, so that if any buildings were constructed later on, they would synchronize with the buildings we had. At that time old Breck Hall looked like, in relation to the other buildings, frankly, that somebody had taken a load of bricks out there and unloaded them and put up a building there. Well, you couldn't expect any great interest in a college that didn't have that sort of a program. The people we brought down here (I can't recall their names right now) did the landscaping at Duke and also some at Princeton; and they were the firm that drew the plans and arranged, as landscape artists, for these exits off the highways and so forth. I figured, well, let's shoot for the moon and get the best. When they came in, Mrs. Evans saw the landscape draft of the future of Centre College and that's what made here become interested. She said, "Well, now the College seems to know where they are going." And so she added into it an annuity agreement with the College, making her last will and testament a part of that annuity agreement. And 1 attribute most of the success of that to Nelson Rodes as a lawyer who was her attorney. So that came in. She also rearranged the old house back of the women's college there, that old, old home. She spent about $25,000.00 on remodeling that and remodeled it so that it could be converted into faculty apartments after she passed away.

INTERVIEWER: If there was one thing that happened that you could change, what do you think it would be?

Well, I really don't know, Mr. LeDoux, because we had a very marvelous group of trustees at that time. They were forward-looking men and there was not a point that they were not in full cooperation all the way along with the program. And I attribute the progress of the College during that period of time to our trustees; more to the trustees, if anything, than to the faculty, because they had to handle the financial end of it, don't you see. But a wonderful faculty they were, for what we were paying them. I don't know of an institution that could have held on to the faculty that they had. The faculty was here, I think, because they felt a sense of mission and they loved the College and the community.

INTERVIEWER: You were president on December 7, 1941. What do you remember of the mood of the College after Pearl Harbor?

When I met with the trustees immediately following the Pearl Harbor affair, I told the College then: They said, "Well, this will be over in a few years." I said, "No, it will not, either." Because I was in the First World War, I said, "No, it will not be over right away. We'd better be thinking in terms here of a long pull, and we'd better get in touch with some connection with the Army or the military forces to set up a unit here in the College because it's going to be done all over the country." So when I finally resigned to go into the Navy as a chaplain, they said--well, I wanted to resign; they refused to accept my resignation. They said, "You'll be back in a few months." I said, "No, I'll not be back in a few months, either." I said, "I'm going to stay until the war is over because I think I'm needed." So they refused to accept my resignation. Well, I knew Dr. McMullen, knew he was at Princeton up there taking graduate work and doing some reading and studying. So I went up to see him, and I said, "Now you can not go back to China until this war is over, if then." I said, "I won't be back at Centre until this war is over." And I said, "You have had experience as a college president, you're a graduate of the College, you're qualified." I said, "You go down there as a co-president of the College and take over until I can get out of the Navy." I talked with him then about what I said a moment ago. I said, "Let's have it arranged with the College that at the end of the war they are under no obligation to either of us, nor are we under any obligation to the College. We don't know what the situation will be." So he agreed to that. There was a three-way agreement on the matter. Therefore, it followed through in that particular situation, as I said a moment ago. I don't know that I would have resigned when I did had I not known that Dr. McMullen was going to stay on here. Of course I had already made my--. I had these convictions, but I mean, I would have stayed on until they could have gotten another one if I had known Dr. McMullen was not going to stay on.

INTERVIEWER: Were you more or less the genesis behind the Army Air Cadet Program at Centre?

Well, partially.

INTERVIEWER: How did that take place?

Well, I don't know because we had just put in for it and were seeking it when I left here. So when we left the Craik House and stored our furniture here in Danville to go to Washington, they made the Craik House into a dormitory for these Air Cadets. They took out the gold leaf mirrors; they had these enormous gold leaf mirrors over the marble mantels, and they had chandeliers--crystal chandeliers--hanging with rosettes in the ceiling there. So they put the Air Cadets over there; of course they were pretty rough in the situation. So they took out these mirrors and also the chandeliers, and I understand they have been misplaced somewhere. I don't know when they--they didn't put them back--well, they did put them back up. And then we put on our board a man from Louisville, Holbrook and Morgan and the first-named man--I've forgotten his name--we put him on the board. Holbrook was the engineer; Morgan was the artist, and he saw the possibilities in this old Craik House of being an outstanding typically southern colonial home. So he came in, and I think the College spent about $90,000 on the place to lower the ceilings, to put in central heating and air conditioning, and also took out those marble mantels and put in colonial mantels, and that sort of thing, and did a remarkable job. But it was interesting to us to go in old Craik House as it had been since about 1852, I suppose, with those very quaint, really, and very interesting old gold leaf mirrors and marble mantels and crystal chandeliers and so forth. And they had those shutters on the inside of the windows that went all the way to the floor, you know.

INTERVIEWER: Was there kind of an exodus of young men during the first few months of 1942? Were a lot just automatically quitting to go?

Oh, yes. Another thing, Mr. LeDoux, that made me feel that I had to go to the Navy; these boys would come by. As they were called up, they would come by the office and say good-bye to me. And so many of them would say, "If you are ever a chaplain in the services, I hope you'll be my chaplain." That just kept on until finally I just simply had to give up the College and go into the services because I knew the men I would be serving with were just like these men that were leaving Centre, don't you see. I would hate to have seen those men out there without the services of a chaplain.

INTERVIEWER: There are so many people that you worked with during your years as president. From the books we can learn the official biographical information about them. But I was wondering if you could select, oh, three or four people that you worked particularly close with and maybe just give a brief paragraph that would characterize those people.

Well, Dr. Manning, who went on to the University of Maryland in the English department up there, I think he was chairman of the English department. I'm not sure. But we were very impressed with him. He was a very profound person.

And then we were so delighted to get Charles Hazelrigg back here. We brought him back. He was a student when I first came. We were so glad to bring him back here into the College.

And Proctor Knott. He was a great character and a great professor, typical college professor if you've ever seen one, the best informed man I have ever met in my life, in every single field. I don't know how in the world a man-- Of course he never did marry; he didn't have to take care of a wife. But he was the best informed man I believe I have ever known.

Dr. Porter, who was dean of students, was a great character and a typical professor.

Dr. Hewlett was a great English professor, and he was a very good administrator and a very scholarly man. But he did not have the sense of humor that Dr. Porter had. Dr. Porter had a great sense of humor, and he was a man in the right place, as Dr. Hewlett was. But Dr. Porter was a man in the right place because he was dealing with the students with their particular problems. Dr. Hewlett was more the academic man, you see.

Dr. Rush, who was in science, was a great fellow. And Dr.--oh, I can't recall his name right now--he was of Dutch background. We used to play bridge with them occasionally. He would always say, "We are vulnerable." Meaning "we are vulnerable."

INTERVIEWER: What was Mary Sweeney like?

Yes. Mary Sweeney was here as dean of women. The first dean of women, the lady that was dean of women when I first came here was from Lebanon. She was here for a short while. And then the next dean of women was from Davidson College in North Carolina. Her father was one of my professors here. She had been dean of women at Peace College in Raleigh. And so we needed a dean of women, and I managed to get her here. She's still living. When she left, we got Miss Lamb, who was a graduate, I believe, of Wellesley. I don't remember how we got in touch with her. And then, just before I left, Miss Lamb left, and we got Miss Sweeney then. She's still living, isn't she? I believe she is.

INTERVIEWER: What's Herbert Meyer like?

Oh, Herbert Meyer was a great character, honestly, and I think a monument ought to be put up to that boy, the way he handled things financially. He was being paid just a pittance when I came here. And he didn't have too much authority, and he had to wait for the board of trustees to decide certain things. I was just very unhappy with that situation, and finally we gave him more leeway there in what he did. He did a magnificent job the whole time he was here. I know the only reason he did it was his love for the College. He was a great business manager.

So many of these people I feel we are so indebted to that I've often felt--I felt when I was here, actually--that what the Bible says in trustees, "Wherefore, seeing we are compassed about with so great a crowd of witnesses, let us run the race that is set before us." And really, the trustees, the faculty, the students, and the townspeople here created the cheering section for me the whole time I was in Centre. I feel that very strongly.

INTERVIEWER: Dr. McLeod, you've had the opportunity to observe students from the days when you were president all the way through to the present. Have students changed any, in your view, in their outlook toward the future, their attitude towards authority, their goals, for example?

Well, I tell you, we had some students here when I was here, I think we were very fortunate. For instance, Dr. Phifer, who I mentioned a moment ago, and Jim Evans and Pierce Lively and Bill Breeze and all that group of men; they caught a vision of what Centre might be. I mean, even back then they caught a vision of what Centre might be. I went into the Navy in 1943 in January. All right, Jim and Pierce graduated in May or June, and they came right on into the Navy and, fortunately, were sent to Chicago. At that time I was chaplain of Great Lakes Naval Training Station, so we were together nearly every weekend. Ruth, my wife, knew both of them, and of course I had been very close to them, and they were very close to us. We had them in our home a good deal. So even up there we were talking about what Centre's possibilities were and so forth. And last night, when they both were standing there at the podium, we were moved, really, emotionally, to see some of their dreams come true. But I think students generally, to answer your question, students generally--of course, I taught at Lindenwood College for a while--I really have a strong feeling. I'm more optimistic about the future of our College students than I have ever been before, because I think from year to year--while we get a lot from the news and the media about the unusual, which would be only about 10 percent, for their demonstrating and all--I think generally our college students today are so superior to my days in college that I'm very hopeful about the future. I think their ideals and their principles and their knowledge--and they are nonconformists, I'll agree to that--but I think they are somewhat being transformed in a way that sometimes the public doesn't see. In other words, a transformer in electricity is to control the current that goes into the appliances there, and it's a very quiet sort of thing. Nonconformity and conformity are somewhat very evident; transformity is not. Nonetheless, I think it's there.

INTERVIEWER: You've had the opportunity to meet and work with subsequent Centre presidents and observe their work. How has the job changed over the years?

Well, I think the College was extremely fortunate to get Tom Spragens here, because I think Tom has just done a capital job. I have been on the sidelines watching and rejoicing in it and of course keeping in touch with it more than I could have otherwise if it hadn't been for Jim Evans because we've been very close through the years. Of course I spent many hours at Davidson College last week for my 60th Class Reunion. I know the president there very well. They had on a campaign for $30 million and they have approached success. This College had $36.5 million when they approached their conclusion. And the two colleges, a great similarity between the two. I think my love and affection for Davidson College, my old college, is perfectly parallel with Jim Evans' love and devotion and affection for Centre College. And we each understand the other's viewpoint on it. Of course, I'm naturally more devoted to Centre than Jim could be to Davidson because I've been here with Centre, you see.

INTERVIEWER: Are there any favorite stories or anecdotes from Centre you'd care to pass along?

No, I don't believe there is. Mr. Guy Wiseman--I come back to him--he was a great character, great lover of this College. There's this one thing, I would say, I think is another evidence of the loyalty of Boyle County people to their College. We put on a $1.4 million campaign when I was here. Dr. Cowan and I went around and talked to different ones (I'm not going to name the families or anything; they've all passed on now); there was only one that did not in their wills leave to this College what they said they were going to leave, or more, except one, and that one had not made a will. I think that's quite a tribute to the loyalty to the College because people can change their wills overnight. But these people stood by their guns on it. As a matter of fact, I know of two of them, and I won't mention any family names because it was all in confidence; what they left amounted to around 200 to 300 percent more than they thought it would be when they were leaving it, the value of it, when they passed on.

INTERVIEWER: Our time is about up; I don't want to keep you. But do you have anything, any closing comments or anything that you'd like to add to this?

No. I'm just delighted and more hopeful about Centre than I've ever been to see your new president coming in as he is because I knew of him in North Carolina. One of my nephews was one of his trustees at Salem College. My sister was a graduate of Salem College, and one of our mutual friends is a retired federal judge down there, and this retired federal judge was the ring bearer in my wedding fifty-six years ago. We talked about Dr. Morrill. I had never met him until last night, when I did meet him. And after meeting him and his charming wife, I'm even more hopeful about the future of the College in every way.

INTERVIEWER: Thank you, Dr. McLeod.

Thank you. I enjoyed talking with you.